ABC Radio Canberra interview with Dr Nelson about naming an electorate after Charles Bean
Radio program: ABC Radio Canberra Breakfast
Interviewee: Dr Brendan Nelson AO, Director Australian War Memorial
Interviewers: Dan Bourchier and Adam Shirley
Dan Bourchier:
Well, how do you feel about the choice of Bean as the name of the new federal electorate here in Canberra? More than 70 people have already lodged objections with the Electoral Commission about the new electorate borders and its name, including the Labor MP for Eden-Monaro Mike Kelly, who said war historian Charles Bean was anti-Semitic and that he disliked Sir John Monash.
Well, the Australian War Memorial has weighed in, defending the decision to honour Charles Bean with a federal electorate name. Memorial Director Dr Brendan Nelson has written an impassioned letter to The Canberra Times today urging critics to research exactly what Charles Bean did for Australia.
Dr Nelson's here now. Good morning.
Dr Nelson:
Good morning, Dan.
Dan Bourchier:
Why does the World War One historian and journalist Charles Bean deserve this honour?
Dr Nelson:
Well, I accept that, Dan, most of your listeners probably haven't heard of Charles Bean, or if they have, don't know much about him. He was in every sense a product of his day: he was born in the late 19th century. He came out of regional New South Wales. He spent time in English school system and, like many Australians of his day, he carried- our nation was deeply divided along political, religious, and racial lines. Protestants had no time for Catholics and Christians no time for Jews, and so on it went.
What this man did, however, he landed with the Australian troops at Gallipoli. He was chosen by his own colleagues - your colleagues of the day - to be the official First World War correspondent. He was at the front with them through the entire war. He refused to be evacuated when he was wounded. He was almost killed twice on 31 July 1916 at Pozieres getting to the very front and when he got back to his tent, he wrote in his diary: blackened men everywhere, torn and whole, dead for days. A mortally wounded Australian asked him at Pozieres - Bean witnessed 23,000 Australian casualties in six weeks - will they remember me in Australia?
And from there, he conceived and resolved at its end, he'd build what he would describe as the finest memorial and museum these men of the AIF and the nurses. To give you a sense of the character of the man, Dan, on the day of the armistice - so the war has finally come to an end - he's not in a tent with officers drinking champagne to celebrate the end or anything - he goes back to Fromelles. The place of our worst day in our military history. Five and a half thousand Australian dead and wounded in 24 hours on 19 and 20 July 1916. And he wanted to reflect and record, and he said: we found the old man's land simply full of our dead; the skulls and bones, torn uniforms, are lying about everywhere.
He then had to persuade the government of the day - in a very anti-war Australia, understandably - going through the Great Depression, to commit money to build the Australian War Memorial. He writes and edits the twelve volumes of The Official History of the First World War over a quarter of a century.
He repudiates very publicly the anti-Semitic views that he'd had, he repudiates his attempts to thwart John Monash's ascendancy to lead the Australian corps. He becomes an advocate for a major refuge in Australia to settle Jewish people from Eastern Europe. And he has left an immense legacy. Every time any Australian sees an image of, drives up Anzac Parade, walks up to the War Memorial, just remember this place exists largely from the vision, the hard work, and determination of one man - Charles Bean.
Adam Shirley:
I suppose, Dr Nelson, the question of whether the electorate should be named after him comes to a heart- to its heart a character judgment that we all make, that anyone who has a say in this will make. His service record, as you say, is up there with the greatest in Australian history. But of his previous views, which he then repudiated, do you understand why there is a question mark that some will have around that character and the way he viewed Jews and the way he viewed other people from various cultures?
Dr Nelson:
Well, Adam, I do understand why at first blanch people in our modern lives, in the comfortable world in which we live, would think: oh no, we can't have anybody who had those kind of views. We've got to have the imaginative capacity to see the world through the eyes of people 100 years ago, and a century ago it was it was essentially the norm. I'm not excusing it - in fact, anti-Semitism remains a repugnant and virulent force in far too many hearts in people and places throughout the world, but in that day, you've got to remember that Australia, in fact our political class, in Gareth Evans himself famously said in the Parliament in 1996 of the Labor Party, he said: we, the, Labor Party were racist long before we were socialist.
You've got to understand that back in the early 20th century and through much of the 20th century, our nation had a White Australia Policy. There was intense - I'm a Catholic and I remember how my grandparents spoke about Protestants and an earlier generation would speak about Jews and anybody else. We've got to understand that that was the nature of the day.
But unlike many others, Bean was a man whose ideas and attitudes evolved. He had an open mind, and one of the legacies that he and Napier Waller left in the Hall of Memory above the Tomb of the Unknown Australian Soldier in 15 values informing character was the importance of having an open mind - a mind open to new ideas and other people.
And so I think it's that it's a measure of any human being to start your life with certain views, but then allow those views to be challenged, shaped, and transformed by the observations you make and the reflections you make upon your circumstances and yourself.
Adam Shirley:
So, if we follow that, I guess, theory through about reconciliation and reviewing the world view you can take and it evolving - some people have raised the point that this should be named after an Indigenous person or place, for example why not revert to calling this new seat Namadgi in the spirit of paying spirit to the original owners of this land.
Dr Nelson:
Adam, I have no issues whatsoever with any of that. I have no argument with those who are arguing it should be a woman, it should be an Indigenous Australian, it should be a pioneer of the ACT. All I'm saying to you, that this man, Charles Bean, is a man more than worthy of being honoured and honoured in this way. And if you look at the founding fathers of our Constitution and a number of electorates named in honour of those people, those people had very similar views and in some cases did not change them at all throughout their lives.
I've also got to say to you that Charles Bean was twice -twice - offered a Knighthood and twice refused it. And on the second occasion, he wrote to the Governor-General and he said: though I've got the greatest admiration for many titled men and women for their work and influence, it seems to me in practice, despite certain advantages, the system encourages false values among our people and that our generation needs above everything else to see and aim at true values. For this reason I beg to decline the reward.
Radio program: ABC Radio Canberra Breakfast
Interviewee: Dr Brendan Nelson AO, Director Australian War Memorial
Interviewers: Dan Bourchier and Adam Shirley
The kind of people- and by the way, John Monash was another one, only wanted two words on his headstone: John Monash. The kind of people that have those attitudes are the people worthy of honouring, and I think particularly with the capacity to evolve and repudiate and challenge views previously held; they're the kind of people we need to recognise.
Dan Bourchier:
Dr Brendan Nelson, it's an interesting point you make about him turning down that honour, a knighthood, twice. Given that and the quote that you just read out, do you think that this is the sort of honour that he would actually want?
Dr Nelson:
Who knows, Dan. The past is another country. It's very hard- in fact, you should not interfere in its affairs. I suspect that Charles Bean would have been greatly embarrassed. And I'll tell you something else: a couple of years ago I was given an AO, Order of Australia. I agonized over whether to accept it. I don't wear it. And the reason I did so - in fact, Kerry Stokes asked me why I don't wear it. I said, Kerry, look, I'm leading in this institution founded by a man who saw more in an hour than I will see in my entire life, twice refused a knighthood, and in the end, I accepted it because my wife said: well look, it's not for you it's for all of the people that have worked in the causes to which you've committed yourself. And that is the argument I'd put in relation to naming this electorate in honour of Charles Bean.
It's not about Charles Bean. It's about the 62,000 that he witnessed killed. It's about the immense courage, the emerging sense of Australian character and identity that he documented and recorded throughout the course of the First World War, and the legacy that he has given us in this Australian War Memorial - which by the way, in 2016 was the number one landmark in Australia on TripAdvisor and number 23 in the world. He gave us this and, importantly, this is a place that does not- from his character and his vision, this is a place that does not exhibit triumphalism, it does not demean former foes, and in fact it's here that we reveal our character as a people.
The recognition might have his name on it, if this is the case, but it's not actually for him - it's for that extraordinary generation and everything that he not only witnessed, but he recorded and has given us.
Dan Bourchier:
Dr Nelson, great to chat. Thanks so much for coming on and talking us through your views on this today. I think it's illuminated a debate that is a very big one right here. Thanks so much.
Dr Nelson:
Thank you, Dan.
Dan Bourchier:
That was the director of the Australian War Memorial.